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Thread: Giroux and Voracek just aren'e elite....just face it.

  1. #1
    Waive Nodl and Shelley BluehenJK's Avatar
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    Giroux and Voracek just aren'e elite....just face it.

    I like the prospects in the Flyers system and hope they pan out. But lets be honest Claude Giroux and Jake Voracek were never the guys you build around. Can you win w/ them...yes. But they need help. They aren't Toews/Kane or Crosby/Malkin. Hextall needs to spend money eventually on a top notch elite forward if he ever wants to win w/ this forward corps or get lucky in the draft.

  2. #2
    Artist formerly known as kindczar zeusam's Avatar
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    Of course they're not...2nd level behind the elite players, can't carry a team, great complimentary players.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by BluehenJK View Post
    I like the prospects in the Flyers system and hope they pan out. But lets be honest Claude Giroux and Jake Voracek were never the guys you build around. Can you win w/ them...yes. But they need help. They aren't Toews/Kane or Crosby/Malkin. Hextall needs to spend money eventually on a top notch elite forward if he ever wants to win w/ this forward corps or get lucky in the draft.
    It's time to jump on the tank train for next season or the blow it up plan if you prefer. There are really no good arguments against it.

    7 out of the last 8 Stanley cups were awarded to teams that tanked. For some reason Flyers fans want to mimic the only one that didn't, Boston. Doesn't seem like a great plan trying to hit on 1 in 8 odds. It also doesn't take into consideration that Boston's was built on two hall of fame or near hall of fame ufas, Chara and Thomas, and a hall of fame center taken in the 2nd round of the deepest draft in modern history. Does any of that seem reproducible?

    Another argument is that tanking isn't guaranteed to work, that you can be stuck on the bottom for a long time like Edmonton was. That's true but you can also get stuck in the mediocre middle for just as long which is where the Flyers have lived for the pass 5 seasons. Again 7 of the last 8 cups to tankers. How many middling teams have made it out of the mediocre middle to actual win a cup?

    The fan base won't accept being lousy. This was the Phillies argument for bringing back the same declining vets for 3 seasons even though it was obvious the group couldn't win. Less and less fans came out each year until the Phillies finally accepted the inevitable rebuild. How many years will it take to get them back. So the fans are going to leave either way. However in hockey, adding one guy in the draft can get fans back in their seats after just one bad season.

    Lastly everyone including Hextall has the singular plan to draft the Flyers out of this mess. Doesn't it make sense to have better draft picks to do it?

    With the defense and goaltending prospects in place, the Flyers just need elite forwards, the easiest prospects to identify in the draft. This season is over already and the draft is subpar but next year's draft is looking good. At most the Flyers would have to shitcan two seasons to get those elite guys. I would rather watch a young team be bad for two seasons then see these same shitty vets on the ice for another two years.

  4. #4
    No, it's not. The Tank ship has sailed ... many years ago or at least it should have been done on the last two drafts which were stacked with talent.

    The Flyers still have the assets to make some big moves to get younger and rebuild if they want to do that. Everyone complains about Voracek's deal but it doesn't contain a NTC of any kind. They probably had to pay him more money for him to agree to a contract without a NTC. Anyway, if they were to offer him in a trade I am certain they would find some takers and get a good return.

    The problem with that blow it up and rebuild theory ... it completely ignores the fact the Flyers have about 4 highly thought of D prospects that are ready or almost ready for the NHL and a number of forward prospects and goaltending prospects that are in the same boat (Provorov, Morin, Sanheim, Myers, Haag, Koneny, Lindholm, Rubstov, Lyon, Stolarz, Sandstrom). The foundation for the rebuild is already there. All you people need to do is open your eyes. Hopefully they will get another legit forward prospect in the draft this year.

  5. #5
    Waive Nodl and Shelley BluehenJK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhillyMac View Post
    No, it's not. The Tank ship has sailed ... many years ago or at least it should have been done on the last two drafts which were stacked with talent.

    The Flyers still have the assets to make some big moves to get younger and rebuild if they want to do that. Everyone complains about Voracek's deal but it doesn't contain a NTC of any kind. They probably had to pay him more money for him to agree to a contract without a NTC. Anyway, if they were to offer him in a trade I am certain they would find some takers and get a good return.

    The problem with that blow it up and rebuild theory ... it completely ignores the fact the Flyers have about 4 highly thought of D prospects that are ready or almost ready for the NHL and a number of forward prospects and goaltending prospects that are in the same boat (Provorov, Morin, Sanheim, Myers, Haag, Koneny, Lindholm, Rubstov, Lyon, Stolarz, Sandstrom). The foundation for the rebuild is already there. All you people need to do is open your eyes. Hopefully they will get another legit forward prospect in the draft this year.
    If you are truly going to do a rebuild, Voracek needs to be traded...period. This is what he is; an inconsistent forward with talent who goes in slumps where he looks like he is brain dead. He could bring back picks/prospects to build with the other young guys in the system.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by BluehenJK View Post
    If you are truly going to do a rebuild, Voracek needs to be traded...period. This is what he is; an inconsistent forward with talent who goes in slumps where he looks like he is brain dead. He could bring back picks/prospects to build with the other young guys in the system.
    The only way I trade Voracek would be if he brought back NHL ready assets. A young top 6 forward already on an NHL roster and a prospect ready to play now. If we can get that, I'd be open to it.

  7. #7
    Waive Nodl and Shelley BluehenJK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhillyMac View Post
    The only way I trade Voracek would be if he brought back NHL ready assets. A young top 6 forward already on an NHL roster and a prospect ready to play now. If we can get that, I'd be open to it.
    Why would a team trade away a young top 6 forward for older top 6 forward in Voracek w/ a huge contract? Voracek is never going to change...this is him. He might have a few more points but this is it. He will never play up to the contract. Remember when you move that cap space; it can be used to get a another forward. Fail quick is the key in sports. The Voracek signing was a bust....move on now before its too late.

  8. #8
    Suffers from Woot Nuts Disease bmp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluehenJK View Post
    If you are truly going to do a rebuild, Voracek needs to be traded...period. This is what he is; an inconsistent forward with talent who goes in slumps where he looks like he is brain dead. He could bring back picks/prospects to build with the other young guys in the system.
    Hextall should have been a big seller at the trade deadline, they should have been moving off older talent to build for the future long ago.
    Not signing long term deals with journeyman players to fill roles.
    You brought in a coach who was supposed to be good with young players, so give him the young players and not a roster full of veterans.
    You accomplish several things; your young talent gains NHL experience, you know sooner who's gong to make it in the NHL and when you lose, you get a better draft pick. Hopefully the young team is exciting or more interesting to watch and the fans support it.
    Right now, they aren't winning, they are mired in mediocrity and the product is drek.
    Science does not suffer fools well, but it does make fools suffer.

  9. #9
    All Star Tidal22's Avatar
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    I have 2 points to make.....

    The first is, at one point, both Giroux and Voracek were elite level players. No one may agree with me, but I watch a ton of NHL games and it's hard for me to reconcile how they weren't "elite" at times when they were carrying this team by themselves, factoring in on almost 65%-70% of all the goals scored by this team. You absolutely COULD have built a team around them, but instead, they did NOTHING to help the actual product on the ice. They waited. They waited. They waited longer....and they drafted.

    The second point is, at this point, Giroux is clearly a player who has been ridden hard and put away wet. He's not done, but he's not the player who had 250pts in 224 games (including playoffs) over a 3 year period. Voracek still has the capability to be dominant, but he, like Giroux, is trying way too hard to do way too much, because the same secondary scoring that's been lacking in the past is STILL lacking. Having said all of that, this team absolutely should be dealing off guys like this now, because they're not going to be 24-27 year old Giroux and Voracek again and Hextall seems more than happy to continue waiting. If that's the case, I'd sooner see the team blow it up, max out assets, max out the cap gains and then build it up again.

    It does no good to sit here, middling, waiting and hoping to hit a small window, with a capped out team (and, not because of just Holmgren, but because Hextall insists on signing 15 4th line guys and the Dale Weise's of the world) for another 2-3 years. That road ends with the eventual need to dump players anyway, at less value and it's only worth it if you can actually hit a true championship window, which is difficult to see happening, without a major trade.
    Much like Ron Hextall, I will not mortgage my future posts on rental posts.

  10. #10
    All Star Tidal22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhillyMac View Post
    No, it's not. The Tank ship has sailed ... many years ago or at least it should have been done on the last two drafts which were stacked with talent.

    The Flyers still have the assets to make some big moves to get younger and rebuild if they want to do that. Everyone complains about Voracek's deal but it doesn't contain a NTC of any kind. They probably had to pay him more money for him to agree to a contract without a NTC. Anyway, if they were to offer him in a trade I am certain they would find some takers and get a good return.

    The problem with that blow it up and rebuild theory ... it completely ignores the fact the Flyers have about 4 highly thought of D prospects that are ready or almost ready for the NHL and a number of forward prospects and goaltending prospects that are in the same boat (Provorov, Morin, Sanheim, Myers, Haag, Koneny, Lindholm, Rubstov, Lyon, Stolarz, Sandstrom). The foundation for the rebuild is already there. All you people need to do is open your eyes. Hopefully they will get another legit forward prospect in the draft this year.
    "The Flyers have the assets to make some big moves to get younger and rebuild if they want to do that". I 100%, completely, agree, but Hextall has shown 0 inclination to do this. He's spoken out about it at every possible chance and he's made not 1 trade to truly add anything. The Filppula trade is about the closest thing to an actual addition he's made, but it's not "game changing".

    If Hextall went out in June and made a real move to add another high end piece, I would totally be behind it, but if he's not going to do that, then he has to consider the alternative. If they don't add, they're not going to be good enough, on prospects alone, before Giroux is significantly degraded. If they do add via trade, they can absolutely accelerate the process, but until I see Hextall actually making those types of moves, it's hard to visualize he sees it the way you and I do.
    Much like Ron Hextall, I will not mortgage my future posts on rental posts.

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